I Hate Mountains Forums

Icarus

Member

Registered: 2010-06-05

Honest to God Feedback

I've played IHM twice through, first time with Chet and two other valve guys, and then again with a custom TF2 mapper and two random people. I don't work for valve, I only develop custom maps for source games.

It all felt rather underwhelming. It was very well detailed, but everyone felt gameplay needed work. There is a very weak sense of direction in the maps. The only times we knew where we were going was because of the same "YOU WILL SURVIVE" sign that was a bit overused.

The multiple branching paths were a nice idea, but were executed in such a way that it was too easy to get lost and end up going in circles or backwards through the route we didn't use. It might help if you made them one-way drop downs where the paths converged again, so you stay on the right path. Very often, you have arrows that are completely pointless because you would need to take a 180 degree turn to see it. The many fallen survivor camps you have spread out all over the map was an interesting touch, but leaving ammo and machine guns everywhere did nothing more than throw us off the main path more than we already have been. (very often it was just another dead end, something you have way too much of)

The first stage wasn't really well paced. Survivors saw very little resistance or action, even on expert. traditionally, first stages are supposed to be rather easy, but the Woods was way too much of a cakewalk.

The second stage, the manor, was probably my least favourite. There are way too many arrows, even some that point the wrong way. The layout was confusing and unforgiving, and everyone was pretty much confused at how the crecendo event worked. Some people actually tried jumping out the window with the flares.

Funny enough, we were all expecting a helicopter to rescue us at the end of the finale. We all huddled around the helipad waiting for it. it wasn't until later that it turned out to be a seaplace instead, on the other side of the map.

There are a supreme lack of lights in the second and third stages. Chet said players need a break from all the repeated darkness from time to time. When the poor direction and confusing events, players really start to get fatigued.  The roof of the manor was especially bad, since it was so dark you could not see where the edge of the roof was if you're being attacked by the horde.

My friend also noticed you took a lot of assets from HL2:Ep2, and even from TF2

It looked nice, but I didn't really have much fun until we got to the fourth stage. Which also turned out to be really short

Don't take my post the wrong way, I don't hate I Hate Mountains. I understand that development is an iterative process, and you guys have just released this yesterday. I hope you guys continue to work on IHM and improve on the gameplay.

-Icarus

Last edited by Icarus (2010-06-05 18:00:01)

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I must say I'm a bit confused by this post. We had a hell of a lot of feedback since yesterday, and a large majority of players liked the multiple path, the feeling of being a bit lost, the signs to tell them where to go and the relative darkness of the levels. You say you didn't like the second and third levels and for most players it's the ones they preferred.

All of this is definitely not something we're going to change, this is everything our play-testers loved when we talked with them. Of course not everything is perfect, and even if we really enjoy having some real game developers feedback (we had some very valuable when I released Portal: Prelude), we also really don't like being judged by professional game developers on the sole basis that we didn't make a professional piece of work. Obviously, that might be because we are not game developers.

I'm still gonna comment your post to explain you why I think otherwise.

It all felt rather underwhelming. It was very well detailed, but everyone felt gameplay needed work. There is a very weak sense of direction in the maps. The only times we knew where we were going was because of the same "YOU WILL SURVIVE" sign that was a bit overused.

As I said, we don't have the experience nor the time to make things better. Sometimes, when it's not your job and you're only giving this a couple hours a day into the making, there's simply a lot of things you can't do. The "YOU WILL SURVIVE" sign may be overused but we prefer to overuse it than having to ditch the things players loved (multiple paths and the feeling of being free).

The multiple branching paths were a nice idea, but were executed in such a way that it was too easy to get lost and end up going in circles or backwards through the route we didn't use. It might help if you made them one-way drop downs where the paths converged again, so you stay on the right path.

This is seriously not something we're going to change. It sure can happen on the first time you play it, but I highly doubt you're going to get lost again at the same place on the following tries. Sometimes it's better to let the player learn by himself instead of spoon-feeding him some brainless experience.

Very often, you have arrows that are completely pointless because you would need to take a 180 degree turn to see it.

Because it was only meant if you came from the other way obviously. I can't see why it makes such a big deal to be a bit lost on the first try. If this is the only thing you have to suffer from before you can really have fun and take advantage of the multiple paths, this is definitely something we won't change. Games are not made to be simple cakewalks.

The many fallen survivor camps you have spread out all over the map was an interesting touch, but leaving ammo and machine guns everywhere did nothing more than throw us off the main path more than we already have been. (very often it was just another dead end, something you have way too much of)

Well, maybe. I can't think of which one you're talking about though. Most, if not all of the fallen survivor camps are not more than 20 feet off the main paths. Would you mind telling a bit more about this?

The first stage wasn't really well paced. Survivors saw very little resistance or action, even on expert. traditionally, first stages are supposed to be rather easy, but the Woods was way too much of a cakewalk.

I can finish the first stage of No Mercy in less than two minutes on expert (and still, the guy in the video is still taking his time). I don't think this is something you can entirely blame on the level, if the director spawns too few zombies or spawns them in fairly open areas or spawns hordes in a place where you can easily reach safety, it can dramatically change the way you experiment the level. Of course first levels must not be too hard nor too easy but we died a lot on this first level during the playtests depending on the runs. How many runs did you make? The canyon part is totally unforgivable if a horde spawns when you're inside.

On one hand, I agree with you that the first level might be a bit too easy, but on the other hand, hard first levels are never fun, especially when you're not called Valve and people won't give it a second try if they judged your custom campaign too hard for them on the first try (something I learnt from Portal: Prelude by the way). Players tend to play on a "try and ditch" basis when they don't pay for content.

The second stage, the manor, was probably my least favourite.

As I said earlier, most of the feedback we got during the playtests and since the release from players point in the exact opposite direction. Strangely enough...

There are way too many arrows, even some that point the wrong way.

I agree that there is too many arrows, we died a little when we had to add them. This is just as I said earlier, we just didn't have enough time and motivation to make things clearer, it takes just too much time for a hobby.

The layout was confusing and unforgiving, and everyone was pretty much confused at how the crecendo event worked.

Ahaha, tell Valve to fix the game and then, we'll talk about custom hints and things like that. When I first played the Mall level in Left 4 Dead 2 with my mates, we didn't knew AT ALL what we were supposed to do and where we were supposed to go when you break that alarmed-glass. It's only when we activated the in-game instructor hints that we understood what to do. So imagine ourselves without the ability to create these hints and I think you can understand our problem.

Some people actually tried jumping out the window with the flares.

Okay, now this is ridiculous. Everytime you see your goal from high up in a video-game you systematically jump in the void hoping for the best? Sorry but who would jump 65 feet from the window of the sixth floor of a manor thinking it's the right way to proceed when the survivors yell "the helicopter's coming!", "down the stairs!" and "run for the chopper!" and when you just walked past a helipad at the beginning of the level?

Funny enough, we were all expecting a helicopter to rescue us at the end of the finale. We all huddled around the helipad waiting for it. it wasn't until later that it turned out to be a seaplane instead, on the other side of the map.

Why the sad smiley?
When I first played the Blood Harvest finale, I had absolutely NO IDEA where the vehicle would stop or even what the vehicle would be and we all died looking for the vehicle, but that was just on the first try. This is no different.

There are a supreme lack of lights in the second and third stages. Chet said players need a break from all the repeated darkness from time to time.

Chet thinks his way, he was not helping us nor directing us when making I Hate Mountains and we made our own choices. His feedback would be important to us but that wouldn't mean we'd have to agree with everything he say either. If we want feedback from him, we'll ask him and not you.

We love dark atmosphere when we play horror-themed games because obviously it often goes together. What's the point of having a flashlight if you don't even need it, this was a common drawback of Left 4 Dead when it was released. So far, I agree that it might be a bit too dark at times, but it's not that we didn't knew it, we even had a meeting at some point to decide if we were going to make it brighter or not. This was our choice to not make it because we wanted it to be like that and had great feedback from players saying "Finally something scary". Of course we also had feedback from players saying that it's too dark, but they still enjoyed it. We just need to find some compromise.

When Marc played with people on the release day, he stumbled upon a game where people where actually scared for real and wouldn't go down the prison block in the underground level because they were afraid of the dark. That's awesome to be able to create such a feeling in a fast-paced game.

The roof of the manor was especially bad, since it was so dark you could not see where the edge of the roof was if you're being attacked by the horde.

Well okay, you're right on this one, it represents 1% of the campaign and we didn't lit the roof. Fair enough, sometimes you have to make sacrifices between things being "realistic" or "100% gameplay efficient". I don't know anyone who lits the roofs of their houses to be honest. But well, okay you're right. It's just that it represents a place of 20x20 feet in the entire campaign, it doesn't kill you if you fall, you only walk around it for like 5 seconds and in case of horde you can head both for the attic or the way you came from and avoid all infected, I don't think it's much of a burden, please give us a break.

My friend also noticed you took a lot of assets from HL2:Ep2, and even from TF2

Well yes, 100% guilty.
What about the guy who decompiled the entire Half-Life 2: Episode One, made a campaign out of it and got praised by Valve? To make it short, if they don't care, we don't care (not entirely true of course, we do care, but we just can't produce so many assets).

It looked nice, but I didn't really have much fun until we got to the fourth stage. Which also turned out to be really short

The fourth stage is after the third the longest of the campaign. In fact, it's the exact same length than the fourth stage of No Mercy, Death Doll and Dead Air. I don't see what's wrong with it.

Don't take my post the wrong way, I don't hate I Hate Mountains. I understand that development is an iterative process, and you guys have just released this yesterday. I hope you guys continue to work on IHM and improve on the gameplay.

Don't take my reply wrong, I don't hate you, it's just that we think different and we don't believe there's some universal rule to follow. Games are all about having fun and it was no use for us to make yet another remake of Death Toll or Blood Harvest. In fact, most people are telling us that it's what they like about the campaign. It looks like something Valve would make, but it's simply different and fresh. Now I don't pretend to be able to do things better than Valve nor do I pretend to know everything about anything, but I do think it means something.

You say "development is an iterative process, and you guys have just released this yesterday. I hope you guys continue to work on IHM and improve on the gameplay". I could say "releasing is just the beginning, if you release something that's broken at least take a few days to fix it". That applies to us, and that goes for Valve too. We'll see who takes it the more seriously because we're still waiting for Valve to "improve" Left 4 Dead... and by "improve" I mean "fix all the blatant game breaking bugs".

Dr. Spud

Member

Registered: 2010-06-05

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I wasn't going to post initially, until you replied to Icarus's post. Really, at the first sign of critical feedback, you write a wall of text desperately trying to disprove it? Come on now.

I'm going to back up Icarus, because no really, this campaign has serious problems. Here's my thoughts on each stage, based on two play-throughs:

Stage 1 is not a bad map, it's just a boring map. It looks great, the paths are clearly defined, and despite the awkward 180 degree turn I didn't have many problems with it. It's just that nothing really happens. Apart from one hill near the start, we were only attacked by zombies on flat land in front of us. We could even snipe boomers from where they spawned because there wasn't much variation in the level for them to approach us by. It was like if you took the first easy street in stage 1 of The Parish, and made the whole level that difficult. Not a bad map, it was neat, but I was hoping for a bit more excitement to start it off.

Stage 2 is where the campaign takes a dive. It's a neat idea: go to the top of the house, fight back down it through the horde, and see an awesome helicopter crash. But the layout just kills it! The first time through, the four of us bumbled through the maze that is the house, following arrows that point to dead ends, and just didn't have fun. We finally made it up, then unfortunately died during the descent "Ok fine," we thought, "it'll be smoother the second time." Then on the second try, we STILL had trouble making it up because we couldn't remember the path through the maze - it was like remembering a Simon-Says pattern! You've got this cool house, and yet it's only when you realize 95% of it is useless wasted space that you can play a good game in it. Why not just make 3 paths up, so you can explore it?

And that's not even getting to the gameplay within it. First of all, by the time we trudge up to the top we're all fairly bored - and heaven forbid one of the players falls down a level on the ascent (like one of us did), and force us to take even more time getting up. Then you start the crescendo event, and despite the entire campaign being a cakewalk up to this point, the difficultly sky-rockets. But it's not a difficult level in the same way that most levels are - it's a corridor-grind with multiple drop-downs D:. You're probably going to take two drop-downs (one is hard enough during a panic event, but two?!?), both of which are between a suprise-clusterfuck inside the house.

Official maps have claustrophobic hallways and drop-downs, and yes they work. But they don't throw them at you inside panic events, and the two certainly don't appear at the same time. It's just incredibly frustrating. Oh and I forgot, on top of that you throw in a closed-door between every room. Ugh, gg.

Then stage 3 happens. Stage 3 is decent most of the way through. The corridors are wide (hurray!) so they don't suffer the same problems as stage 2. And thankfully there are spacious rooms between these corridors. Unfortunately, the spacious rooms don't hide the fact that the map is still 50% corridors. The corridors are uninteresting, "hey look zombies running in a straight line shoot them." The rooms are fine, but beyond the neat cave section they didn't make up for the corridors.

The thing that turns stage 3 from a ho-hum level to an annoying level, though, is the difficulty spikes. We had three, THREE, tanks that stage. One of them ran us through corridors, that felt cheap. The others happened in big rooms, so they weren't bad encounters. But still, there were three of them. By this time we were pretty beat, and weren't too excited to keep playing.

And then we get a breath of fresh air with stage 4. Stage 4 is a solid map. You get back outside to the fantastic alpine theme, there are no more mazes to navigate, and there's a (decently) well executed choice of paths. The point is, the map was fun, and we got to play L4D in spaces that allowed us to move around and make combat decisions. The lumberyard area is the best part of the whole campaign. It was a nice clean crescendo event in an area with lots of interesting combat.

However, the part leading up to the lumberyard, while significantly more fun than the previous stages, still wasn't really blowing me away. The reason is that you didn't make a layout that gave special infected much to work with. The best example is when you go down the left path to the highway, it's a road with a solid wall on the right hand side (the cliff), and a drop down on the left (the water). that pretty much leaves nothing but cars to make it anything but a big corridor. And when it's just cars, well, the survivors aren't going to be fooled by special infected. The map works, sure, but it's missing a layer of depth. Strangely, you nailed that depth in the lumberyard at the end of the stage, but the paths preceding it didn't have the same level of care.

Stage five was also solid, but not blowing me away. I'd relate it to the Dead-Air finale. You've got a big area with a lot of potential depth to the defense. But like the walls on the sides of Dead-Air, there is a correct way to defend this zone. We were in the top floor of the house, in four different spots, and we could shoot down every entrance the infected came in. The tanks didn't really break this up though, because we were given a handy mini-gun to chew him up before he made it to our house. Both tanks ran from the same path in front of the mini-gun, so I wonder does he always come from that side? It's possible we just got lucky. But hey you know it was a solid finale. And the plane rescuing us at the end was a nice touch.

That was my experience with the campaign. Unfortunately I think it was mostly just a visual-showcase.

But like Icarus said, I think you guys can really improve on it. Take the mansion for instance: with couple more stairways or ladders, BOOM it's not a maze anymore. Break down a few more walls so that it's not claustrophobic, make faster ways to make it back up a drop-down or two, remove misleading arrows. Hey, now you're talking. I didn't write a page of criticism just for the sake of criticism. If you treat this release as a beta 1 and iterate on it, you could end up with a fucking great campaign.

Last edited by Dr. Spud (2010-06-05 22:06:21)

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I wasn't going to post initially, until you replied to Icarus's post. Really, at the first sign of critical feedback, you write a wall of text desperately trying to disprove it? Come on now.

And you write a wall of text to reply to it? As I said on the TF2maps.net forums, you guys are clearly understanding it wrong. We're not dismissing the criticism, we're explaining why we disagree. I don't see why it's wrong, there will always be people criticizing for good or bad reasons, we just can't please anyone and Icarus is among them, that's just a matter of opinions. I don't consider this version as a beta, it's been play-tested for over a year, there was just no point in making a beta version. When 95% of our feedback tells us the exact opposite of what you guys are saying, it just means we failed to please you, not everyone.

It also means it doesn't need fixing for now. if people are pleased with the current version of the campaign, it's not our goal to iterate over just so that a dozen fanatics over the Internet can finally say they were pleased with it. It's just too nit-picking to bother and that was the whole point of the whole wall of text, I just was long because I though you deserved a well written answer.

By the way, no I won't reply to your reply because I think you didn't read what I said earlier carefully enough and you didn't answer my own questions. You're also saying things that don't make sense and blaming us for engine issues, that's just not something we can argue with. Come on... you had three tanks? That's too bad, but we can't do anything about it. The coast road path doesn't work well with special infected? Well of course, this level would have been a damn difficult hell otherwise, the coast road is littered with alarmed cars, the tank always spawn here and the area is a little cramped up, not to mention the sawmill part which comes right after and is way more difficult. We could throw the most difficulty we can, it's just gonna piss people off, just like making an insanely difficult first level would.

And I could continue over and over and find reasons to disagree with you because it's simply opinions. We just don't think L4D campaign should work in the same way.

verbatim

Member

Registered: 2010-06-05

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Icarus and Chet probably have a point regarding the design, but the fact is the target audience of these [custom] campaigns isn't the same as the general audience of l4d. It seems self evident that the people who download these custom campaigns are more "hardcore" and don't really mind not that they aren't being funneled to one direction and, in fact, enjoy exploring the level even if it takes time. Chet claiming players need "break" from all the repeated darkness is another assertion that may be true, at least to the extent that it applies to some portion of the playerbase and the rest won't mind. I spent a lot of time deliberately wandering around, marveling the detail. Still, it's somewhat baffling how someone could possibly more than momentarily get lost. I do admit we initially ended up circling around back to the starting safe room on map 3, but we found that amusing rather than frustrating. What may be a problem, is that the director can't really handle the complex geometry and as such the campaign might be too easy. I don't know what can be done about it, perhaps in l4d2 it would be possible to make the hordes more frequent.

No matter, it is still by far the best custom campaign out there. Most of the criticism seems to be that the campaign isn't designed for casual gamers

Last edited by verbatim (2010-06-05 22:47:05)

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Most of the criticism seems to be that the campaign isn't designed for casual gamers

... who don't download custom campaigns anyway.

verbatim

Member

Registered: 2010-06-05

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Most of the criticism seems to be that the campaign isn't designed for casual gamers

... who don't download custom campaigns anyway.

Yes, as I noted in the beginning

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Yes, as I noted in the beginning

Yeah, I know, I was just emphasizing this part.
Also, this is exactly what I'm trying to explain to Icarus and Dr. Spud.
Opinions, opinions.

mhmm

Member

Registered: 2010-06-06

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I feel like these complaints boil down to the same general idea of those who didn't enjoy Portal: Prelude. People didn't like it because it was too difficult, and it strayed from the traditional simple Portal mechanics.

While I don't enjoy every design decision with I hate Mountains, I do understand its desire to be something different. Some of the things that I didn't completely enjoy were the darkness. I felt it was a little overly dark for me (although I do have the darkness turned all the way down in the settings) but I can tell it was a conscious design decision. One of the things I would have enjoyed better would be if you had used light more to guide players, and move them between bright areas.

Anyway, although I didn't enjoy all the decisions, this is most certainly the best custom campaign for Left 4 Dead, and while I do enjoy Icarus' and Spud's maps for TF2, Left 4 Dead is a completely different animal and I believe you are approaching the campaign in a completely incorrect way.

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Lighting change is definitely something we're gonna give a try next week. We don't want to totally change the way it is, but we would certainly don't mind adding a little brightness to the ambient lighting and a few light hints here and there. We'll see what it can offer.

llod

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Reading some of the feedback on here I can't help feeling the posters have gone into this with a negative mindset. (consciously or subconsciously I'm not sure)

I find it impossible to take someone seriously that claims a player felt the need to jump out of a window to get to the helipcopter. Such a statement renders the poster incompetent. No wonder they got lost.

Yeah it's not as accomplished allround as it could be if the guys that made this were professional full time game developers, but by gawd it's a damn enjoyable map. Many many thanks for taking the time to make it.

HeadHunter

Member

From: Buffalo, NY

Registered: 2010-06-06

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Well, I'll be honest - that was the first thing I tried too.  Not because of any lack of "competence", but because of the understanding that most levels in games like this don't have you backtrack through the entire level to proceed.

The objective is visible from that window, and for all I knew there was some path along the rooftops that would get a Survivor closer to the pad without fighting through the Horde.  I don't think anyone's suggesting it would be a good idea to leap 50 feet to the ground - but it's not unreasonable to think there might be a way that begins just outside the window.

When I realized that was not to be the case, then I knew what I had to do.  But the developers wanted feedback and that includes hearing about things people tried or what they expected that differs from the designers' intent.  I don't think they'd want to discourage that by labelling any of their fans as "incompetent", do you?

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

... differs from the designers' intent.

To be honest, there was no particular designers' intent.
If you want to jump out of the window, that's your call, we won't put an invisible wall preventing people from doing it. I hate it when games prevent me from being stupid. If I want to try and jump out of the window, it's my problem. Invisible walls were the cancer of video-games for a long time, we're not the ones reintroducing it.

llod

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Well, I'll be honest - that was the first thing I tried too.  Not because of any lack of "competence", but because of the understanding that most levels in games like this don't have you backtrack through the entire level to proceed.

wow that's quite amazing.  I find it staggering that the game made you backtrack through the entire level. the i word is hovering again!

From personal experience I can honestly say I have never backtracked through the mansion level(apart from the initial stairs at the top ofcourse). The first time I got quite lost (which was wonderful) The second time I went straight outside the entrance you come through into the attic and went down to the outside area via the roofs. Third involved a lot of drop downs, which seems to me to be the easiest. I think I might try and back track through, its such a lovely warren of a mansion that could be quite good fun!

The impression I'm getting is that unless it conforms to the 'norm'  then it's immediatedly viewed as negative. Going into this without preconceived ideas would have probably given you a better feel for this map, not to mention a better experience.

The fact that there is this element and the multiple path scenarios is exactly what does make it stand out from other campaigns, something to be cherished not lambasted IMO.

The objective is visible from that window, and for all I knew there was some path along the rooftops that would get a Survivor closer to the pad without fighting through the Horde.  I don't think anyone's suggesting it would be a good idea to leap 50 feet to the ground - but it's not unreasonable to think there might be a way that begins just outside the window.

Well not unreasonable no, but one look out the window it does seem rather unlikely.

When I realized that was not to be the case, then I knew what I had to do.  But the developers wanted feedback and that includes hearing about things people tried or what they expected that differs from the designers' intent.  I don't think they'd want to discourage that by labelling any of their fans as "incompetent", do you?

No, even if they felt it they oughtn't to. Better for someone independant to speak the truth ;p

Prisoner416

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Well, I'll be honest - that was the first thing I tried too.  Not because of any lack of "competence", but because of the understanding that most levels in games like this don't have you backtrack through the entire level to proceed.

The objective is visible from that window, and for all I knew there was some path along the rooftops that would get a Survivor closer to the pad without fighting through the Horde.  I don't think anyone's suggesting it would be a good idea to leap 50 feet to the ground - but it's not unreasonable to think there might be a way that begins just outside the window.

When I realized that was not to be the case, then I knew what I had to do.  But the developers wanted feedback and that includes hearing about things people tried or what they expected that differs from the designers' intent.  I don't think they'd want to discourage that by labelling any of their fans as "incompetent", do you?

I did the same thing, and I'm not stupid.

Zalbar

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I haven't played the campaign as yet but...put bars on the windows and problem solved?

CosmicD

Member

Registered: 2010-05-23

Re: Honest to God Feedback

lol, my name is not bruce willis and i'm not suicidal so the first time that I saw that crecendo, I didn't think that the shortest route down is out of the window.

It actually has much more gameplay value that you can't do that and the "drop down 1 level at a time" to where the minigun is is genious, when you finally get to the attic and you see the glow on the window you think like umm, what ? do I get to do a crecendo now? I have to go down all that maze ? only to notice that because of your panic you suddenly see open overheads that you can jump down from starting from the atic hole. That gave alot of feeling of relief and at the same time you know you're not quite safe yet.

HeadHunter

Member

From: Buffalo, NY

Registered: 2010-06-06

Re: Honest to God Feedback

From personal experience I can honestly say I have never backtracked through the mansion level(apart from the initial stairs at the top ofcourse). The first time I got quite lost (which was wonderful) The second time I went straight outside the entrance you come through into the attic and went down to the outside area via the roofs. Third involved a lot of drop downs, which seems to me to be the easiest. I think I might try and back track through, its such a lovely warren of a mansion that could be quite good fun!

I didn't mean to imply exactly retracing steps (I dropped from balcony to balcony myself), I merely intended to express why even a completely rational individual could reasonably expect that "progress" means "going forward".  After all, that's the literal meaning of the word.

The impression I'm getting is that unless it conforms to the 'norm'  then it's immediatedly viewed as negative.

If you got the impression that anything I've said is negative, you obviously missed my glowing praise in another thread.  But I'm sure the developers want feedback, and not just a bunch of back-patting.  That means giving them an idea of how players are experiencing the level - and that includes expectations and the occasional misconception.

The whole point of a discussion forum, after all, is to share one's opinions.  If we're all expected to feel the same way on a subject and do everything the same way, discussion is pointless, right?

Last edited by HeadHunter (2010-06-09 03:16:24)

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I merely intended to express why even a completely rational individual could reasonably expect that "progress" means "going forward".  After all, that's the literal meaning of the word.

You got a point here. Only, I'm pretty sure we're not the only game that relied on backtracking once, hell even Left 4 Dead 2 makes you backtracking at times. By the way, this isn't entirely backtracking since the way down can be really different than the way up and doesn't work the same way because of the horde. But well, I wonder how one would represent backtracking in term of level-design? I mean, the elegant way.

HeadHunter

Member

From: Buffalo, NY

Registered: 2010-06-06

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Again, it's not intended as a complaint - once I realized that out the window was not the right way, I figured out where I needed to go.  But generally "back into the horde" is the least desirable option from a Survivor's mentality, so I suppose it's easy to understand why people would prefer to see if there's a way forward.

I suppose that another staircase or path to the helipad would kind of rob a little bit of the tension from the crescendo - and that's something you guys have done especially well in this chapter and the finale.

So it's no criticism of the design - more intended as a scolding for those who would put people down for a rather reasonable attempt.

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

Well fair enough, but even if they put us down, they often have a few good ideas. Tthe problem is not that they put us down, the problem is that they think they're forcefully right maybe because some higher power told them so, I don't know. We fixed two or three things that Icarus reported because he was partially right in what he said and we agreed. It's just that we can't fix everything and we don't want to.

llod

Member

Registered: 2010-06-08

Re: Honest to God Feedback

If you got the impression that anything I've said is negative, you obviously missed my glowing praise in another thread.

Nah not you, you were merely replying  to the jumping out of the window seems like a good idea scenario! (I haven't tried to find out, but so long as you can be pulled up I dont see what the issue is)

Read the tone of the initial post and you'll see it. Making an issue of too many arrows and being thrown off the path as negative gameplay is not really justifiable when the latter is clearly intended.

But I'm sure the developers want feedback, and not just a bunch of back-patting.  That means giving them an idea of how players are experiencing the level - and that includes expectations and the occasional misconception.

The whole point of a discussion forum, after all, is to share one's opinions.  If we're all expected to feel the same way on a subject and do everything the same way, discussion is pointless, right?

Yeah I do have to concede that even feedback based on preconceptions may have some miniminal value.

Fnilp

Member

Registered: 2010-06-06

Re: Honest to God Feedback

But generally "back into the horde" is the least desirable option from a Survivor's mentality

which is why I love this bit SO much, especially in versus

AtomicGaryBusey

Member

From: Seattle, WA

Registered: 2010-06-13

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I just wanted to say that I loved most of this campaign.

The only thing that frustrated me was level two. The guy who said one of his team mates jumped out the window wasn't far off. I had to pause and alt+tab mid-game and come to these forums to see where the hell the helicopter was supposed to be found. I spent about 5 minutes out the windows trying to see where to go forward.

In the end, I made my way back through the manor to the front yard and helipad, but it wasn't easy to figure out.

One major obstacle to thinking I had to backtrack was the arduous task of merely getting to the top of the manor to begin with. The arrow signs were all so misleading I got turned around and lost multiple times on my way on the way up to the radio. Since I was so turned around, I didn't have the thought of going back the way I came - I didn't even remember how I got there!

I agree with the person who said "progress" usually means going forward, or at least backtracking via a slightly different path, e.g. out the side window on one of the lower levels. (Not necessarily out the flare window. That's kind of self-explanatory.)

Awesome campaign for the rest of the levels though, keep it up!

---

"In this world gone mad, we won't spank the monkey - the monkey will spank us!" ~Jay from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back

NykO18

Administrator

From: Montréal, QC

Registered: 2010-05-13

Website

Re: Honest to God Feedback

I didn't have the thought of going back the way I came - I didn't even remember how I got there!

There's no use in going back the way you came, in fact it's much harder this way. The manor was built with probably 2 or 3 merely different paths to reach the top but an incredibly ridiculous number of ways to go down. Basically, everywhere you go is the right way to go down since there's holes and wooden catwalks  everywhere. Going down is a matter of seconds when you think about it. Of course it's not that obvious on the first tries, but when you start to climb it for the second time, you may notice a few things you missed on the first try, like all those holes everywhere and you'll maybe start planning your escape beforehand.